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Jun. 26th, 2004 @ 02:57 pm :: pokes ::
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(angsty)
fullofstarlight:
Current Mood: accomplishedaccomplished
Current Music: This weird Irish music of my mother's....
Well, I know I've been just awful about keeping this community up, but hey, Speech is a drainer of time. Excuses, excuses, I know.

Now, I redid the layout (frankly because it was product of one of my first IrfanView uses), and a nicer one will be on the way, when I can find some good SB pictures (:: coughHINTHINTcough :: ).

So....



My main question at the end of SB has always been "What happened to Betty?". I really wonder if she did go and marry Artie, or if she decided to go her own way, or if she even realised that Joe loved her (and I think he did) or if she stayed angry at his memory. Mostly thought, I wonder if she ever figured out what happened (Listen to Maren talk about fictional characters like real people. Ain't it grand?).

I have to say that the Betty/Joe reletionship fascinates me. They are just such a cool couple, with all their witty dialouge, and hard obstacles. I wonder if in another time, another place, or even without Norma what would have happened between them.

In my less cynical moods I say "They would go back to Ohio and live happily ever after!", and in my more cynical moods I think "They would have been dysfunctional and would have divorced because Joe wouldn't bend his ways!".

Humph.

Thoughts?
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From:teylaminh
Date:June 26th, 2004 02:36 pm (UTC)

My hap'orth, with many parentheses...

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I'll try and make this as brief as I can, since my ramblings about the relationship aspect of SB tend to get very very long indeed...

For starters, I want the record to state that I'm a Norma/Joe shipper above all others. I don't know why, and I've analysed the possible reasons to Hell and back, but I still can't figure it out. Something just clicked and I latched onto it. Anyway. That being said (and I know I'm in the minority, which somehow makes it more special...) I find all five of the key relationships in the movie (and musical) fascinating.

Those five, for the record: Norma/Joe, Joe/Betty, Betty/Artie, Norma/Max and Joe/Artie friendship. I love how they all link together like they do.

So, as for what happened to Betty? Well, my brain likes to wonder what might have happened if Joe hadn't died, and there's always two outcomes: he and Betty make a go of it, or (my favourite), he sees the error of his ways and stays with Norma. I love psychoanalysing Joe. (I'd also like to mention that I'm one of a rare breed of SB-fanfiction writers, and getting inside his head is an obligatory and challenging part of the job...) But I also love trying to get inside Betty's head, too.

She's a clever girl, but she's also quite naive, IMO. She believes Joe loves her, and the reality, as far as I always saw it, was that she was an escape route. At the time their relationship came to a head, he was starting to feel the pressure building at 10086 more than ever before, and, while he definitely doesn't seem the kind to walk in and steal his best friend's girl, he does. I don't think he ever intended to. Betty fell for the Joe Gillis' infamous charm, is all.

If he'd survived, would they stay together? Possibly. Would it last? Who knows? As friends, I love their dynamic - the banter, the snarkiness; as a romantic couple, I'm fairly convinced they'd end up killing each other. Joe doesn't seem the type to want to settle down just yet (movie Joe, anyway. The musical/tour Joe I saw was more cynical-little-boy-lost than just plain cynical...) Besides, I love Artie, and it seems to mean a lot to him to be friends with a cool guy like Joe, whether he's a dead-beat or not... I don't know if Joe'd risk losing one of his only loyal friends in Hollywood, and if it came down to it, I'm sure Artie would pick Betty over him...

Aside from that, I think Betty fell far too fast for Joe for it to be considered true love. When the cat's away, etc, etc... I think she really does love Artie, but his decision to get married in Clinch wasn't to her liking and Joe was right there when she needed him, as well as being a way to further her own career, so...

Somewhere in all of that ramble was a point. :) See what I mean?

Maybe later I'll tidy up my post I did a while back on 'Being A Shipper', because the SB part of it brought more to light. Fodder for further discussion, anyway. ;)
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From:fullofstarlight
Date:June 28th, 2004 11:09 am (UTC)

Re: My hap'orth, with many parentheses...

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Lol, you certainly got smacked.

Personally, I just have to say that I think that Norma is uncapable of a stable reletionship, evidenced by the fact that 1. she lives in a dream world, and 2., she eventually shoots Joe. I think that that itself proves that Norma cares much more for herself than for any feelings she has for Joe. (I just have to say that while it sounds like I don't like Norma, I actually like her for her weakness and selfishness, and that's why I think she is so terribly interesting.)

I have to say the idea of Norma/Joe is intriguing, but I think that in this movie the idea is that all the reletionships are so jaded that there is no clear cut true love. I think the idea is that Joe is caught between these two women, one of whom he likes (Betty), and one of whom he is liked by (Norma), and I think that these together prove very interesting.

Notice that neither Betty nor Norma trust Joe very much. Norma doesn't trust that Joe will stay, and Betty doesn't trust that Joe has a reason for being in Norma's house. IMHO, I think this is Wilder trying to show the jadedness and unpredictability of human nature, as well as mordern life.

I think we see too little of Betty and Archie together (though what we see of Archie, he sounds like an awesome guy) to discern whether Betty truly loves him, but I think that if she is so willing (and IMHO I don't think it is in Betty's nature to be one of those "The cat's away, the mice will play" type girls, but maybe in a way she did connect to Joe more because they were both so lonely) to be fast friends and possibly lovers with Joe.

The innner romantic in me likes to think of Joe and Betty as a kind of twisted Romeo and Juliet, Archie as Paris, and Norma as a sort of Tybalt, but I think that the Betty/Joe plotline came in so suddenly that we couldn't really know anything for sure.

In the musical there is a song in which they do talk about being in love with each other, although they are not as forthright in the movie about it. In some way I think they needed each other, and I agree that maybe they would have ended killing each other, but I think that there is possibility of them being happy together (I totally agree that Joe is not the settling down type, but then again I don't think Betty is either).

Norma and Max seem interesting, but I really think that Norma is a little insane. And she really scares me at times. Particularly when she cut her wrists with Joe's razor, and she talks to DeMille. Maybe I'm just too much of a boring person to like such stupid melodrama in a person such as Norma exhibits sometimes, but although I certainly think she is the most interesting person in the story, she is also at times the most frustrating. Sometimes I really just want to whallop her.

And I hate to sound mean (and I really am sometimes), but I just can't and don't want to see a future in Norma/Joe. Because I think it's all delusion on her part (like before, HOW manu husbands has she had? I forgot.) and all fakery on his. I'm not even sure if he really ever cared for her as a person, or just felt she was necessary to get away back to Dayton.

I'd like to believe that Norma just wanted attention. And Joe just wanted money.

(Lol! I think I had a point too! Wheee!!!! We might actually get some important things behind SB discussed! Wheeee!!!)

~Maren~

PS. <3 the icon
PPS. SB fanfiction? :: ears perk up :: Where can I find it?
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From:teylaminh
Date:June 28th, 2004 03:09 pm (UTC)

Attempt at coherent reply (1)...

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Personally, I just have to say that I think that Norma is uncapable of a stable reletionship, evidenced by the fact that 1. she lives in a dream world, and 2., she eventually shoots Joe. I think that that itself proves that Norma cares much more for herself than for any feelings she has for Joe. (I just have to say that while it sounds like I don't like Norma, I actually like her for her weakness and selfishness, and that's why I think she is so terribly interesting.)

I think you're a little too hard on Norma. She does have a few moments of lucidity. I think the main reason I love Norma/Joe is because a) I'm a huge Angst Queen (and there ain't nothing angstier...) and b) I'm drawn to doomed relationships. I think she was married three times (if memory serves...) and was proably always a little crazy, but we have to remember that in Hollywood, everyone's a little crazy... One day she was a big star, the next she wasn't, and that's bound to screw you up a little. I don't think she's incapable of a relationship, really, but I do think she needs and thrives on having power in her relationships (over Max, over de Mille, over Joe; it's all evidenced in the movie and the musical both) and not many people - not many men - are willing to switch the power relationship like that. IMO, anyway.

She shoots Joe because he drives her to it. "No-one ever leaves a star. That's what makes one a star." He's leaving, so she stops him. It's as simple as that...

I have to say the idea of Norma/Joe is intriguing, but I think that in this movie the idea is that all the reletionships are so jaded that there is no clear cut true love. I think the idea is that Joe is caught between these two women, one of whom he likes (Betty), and one of whom he is liked by (Norma), and I think that these together prove very interesting.

Definitely intriguing; I think that's also why I like it so much. You also have a point there on the jaded relationships thing. Joe is trapped between a lot of things - as you said above, a woman he likes, and one who likes him; a prison and his escape route; poverty and riches beyond his dreams; fantasy and reality. It's really a movie with lots of parallels in it. (For the record, I nearly did my final year dissertation on SB, but decided to do it on fanfiction instead, because the research was easier. But I really wish I'd done it on SB. I may do one anyway, just for fun...)

Notice that neither Betty nor Norma trust Joe very much. Norma doesn't trust that Joe will stay, and Betty doesn't trust that Joe has a reason for being in Norma's house. IMHO, I think this is Wilder trying to show the jadedness and unpredictability of human nature, as well as mordern life.

Also very true. I don't think Betty really trusts that Joe's sincere either; he pretty much turns her world upside down, and then when she's accepted that, he turns it upside down again when she finds the cigarette case... She does realise he's not exactly predictable and stable, but I think she thinks she can change him, make him calm down a little...

Well, she was going to marry him, so I think she did. Just, before she met Joe, she was with this normal, ordinary guy who worshipped the ground she walked on; then she met Joe Gillis, and he argued with her and charmed his way into her working life (though really, it's more like she forces him to work on the script, and he uses that to his advantage in the same way he uses working on Norma's script earlier in the film. I'd never noticed that parallel before now...) and he was exciting and slightly enigmatic... He was also older than her, and I got the impression Artie was nearer her age. So many factors contribute to Betty/Joe that it's difficult to really pinpoint what's going on.

The innner romantic in me likes to think of Joe and Betty as a kind of twisted Romeo and Juliet, Archie as Paris, and Norma as a sort of Tybalt, but I think that the Betty/Joe plotline came in so suddenly that we couldn't really know anything for sure.

I never thought of it that way before... :) It does come in suddenly though, you're right. I think it has to; it just comes out of nowhere, really, and you're like "Whoa, hang on a minute!"

TBC
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From:fullofstarlight
Date:August 8th, 2004 03:25 pm (UTC)

Re: Attempt at coherent reply (1)...

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Ok, I'm going to reply. After over a month. I know. I'm terrible. As an excuse I had almost no internet time in July (bad excuse, but I don't have an others).

Yes, I am hard on Norma, I'm afraid. I guess I just want to smack her sometimes (alot of times, actually), but I can understand why she is the way she is. I mean, if someone found themselves in that position, I would not blame them for wanting to live in the past. I just think Norma carried it a wee bit far.

I can understand her want of power, but I think that she is just mentally in a place where she wants her life to be so like her characters', that she acts like she is always on a film. I'm not quite convinced she understands the implications of the whole rest of the world, as well as the modern reality.

She shoots Joe because he drives her to it. "No-one ever leaves a star. That's what makes one a star." He's leaving, so she stops him. It's as simple as that...

Maybe the Joe thing snapped her over the edge, but I still think that no one would do that to someone they really loved. I think she still wants to believe she's famous more than she wants to love Joe. And, in that light, Joe leaving her opens up the possibility that she's not a star, but I have to think that she is more concerned about that than that it is JOE leaving. In other words, I think that she doesn't care about Joe per se, but the IDEA of him, and the need to have someone there so she can rest easy, and still feel that she is a star.

Joe is trapped between a lot of things - as you said above, a woman he likes, and one who likes him; a prison and his escape route; poverty and riches beyond his dreams; fantasy and reality. It's really a movie with lots of parallels in it.

Awesome point. Very true.

he pretty much turns her world upside down, and then when she's accepted that, he turns it upside down again when she finds the cigarette case

Interesting point, but I don't think that the case hurt her as much as the phone call. But I think that maybe she more realizes the full implications of the whole Norma thing when she goes ther. (That whole scene makes me cringe and shiver everytime I watch it).

He was also older than her, and I got the impression Artie was nearer her age.

I don't think that he was that much older than her. It never really seemed to be an issue, but I do think he's about their age. At least that's the impression I got, especially when he snuck out to the party, saying something like "I needed to be with other people my own age".

It does come in suddenly though, you're right. I think it has to; it just comes out of nowhere, really, and you're like "Whoa, hang on a minute!"

LOL, true.


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From:teylaminh
Date:August 9th, 2004 01:41 pm (UTC)

Re: Attempt at coherent reply (1)...

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(Ignore short reply; stupid LJ.)

Ok, I'm going to reply. After over a month. I know. I'm terrible. As an excuse I had almost no internet time in July (bad excuse, but I don't have an others).

Don't worry about it. Gives the thoughts time to coalesce. :)

I can understand her want of power, but I think that she is just mentally in a place where she wants her life to be so like her characters', that she acts like she is always on a film. I'm not quite convinced she understands the implications of the whole rest of the world, as well as the modern reality.

I agree with you on the characters point. I think there's two sides to her character, to be honest - there's Norma Desmond, the actress, and Norma, the woman, but the line between the two is so ill-defined that even she doesn't know where it is. Both of those sides of her character are also embodied in what she wants from Joe (in every sense of the word) and there's a constant conflict. Norma's world is a very scary place, that's for damn sure...

Maybe the Joe thing snapped her over the edge, but I still think that no one would do that to someone they really loved.

A thought just came to me, though feel free to whack me if it's too sappy. ;) There's a fine line, I feel, between loving someone enough to let them go, and loving them too much to... I don't think Norma really knew what she was doing by that point; the only thing on her mind was to stop him from leaving, any way she could. Of course, by then she's not exactly in a coherent enough state of mind to realise what she's done, but... I don't know, the ending's always been a tricky point for me.

I think she still wants to believe she's famous more than she wants to love Joe. And, in that light, Joe leaving her opens up the possibility that she's not a star, but I have to think that she is more concerned about that than that it is JOE leaving. In other words, I think that she doesn't care about Joe per se, but the IDEA of him, and the need to have someone there so she can rest easy, and still feel that she is a star.

I certainly agree with you on that one - the idea of what he represents is definitely what started the whole thing in the first place. Her initial reaction, remember, was to scoff and sneer at the fact he was writing "words, more words!" before she realised what she could use him for. In the same way, Joe likes the idea of what Norma can give him, otherwise he wouldn't agree to do it.

It's by no means a healthy dynamic they have going, but I think that's why I like exploring it so much...
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From:teylaminh
Date:June 28th, 2004 03:11 pm (UTC)

(2)

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In the musical there is a song in which they do talk about being in love with each other, although they are not as forthright in the movie about it. In some way I think they needed each other, and I agree that maybe they would have ended killing each other, but I think that there is possibility of them being happy together (I totally agree that Joe is not the settling down type, but then again I don't think Betty is either).

Hee, I love that song. Gorgeous tune and lyrics. In the musical, he does partway admit he's in love with Betty. But in "Perfect Year" (the New Year's Eve Norma/Joe song) there's also an implication that there's already at least a little attraction there with Norma. ("Before we play some dangerous game/Before we fan some harmless flame/We have to ask if this is wise/And if the game is worth the prize"...) I'd say it was him warning her off, but then surely the lyrics would be "Before YOU play...", not 'we'... Though in all honesty, with the portrayal that particular tour Joe gave me, I was convinced he was trying not to fall for her that night. (There's a fic about it. See the end note. ;)) But considering my thoughts on Norma/Joe could probably fill a pretty large textbook, I'll stop there...

But yes, back on track: they do need each other, that's true, though not for exactly romantic reasons. ;) They're both hot-headed, and if it did last, it would be laced with too many arguments to be considered exactly healthy...

Norma and Max seem interesting, but I really think that Norma is a little insane. And she really scares me at times. Particularly when she cut her wrists with Joe's razor, and she talks to DeMille. Maybe I'm just too much of a boring person to like such stupid melodrama in a person such as Norma exhibits sometimes, but although I certainly think she is the most interesting person in the story, she is also at times the most frustrating. Sometimes I really just want to whallop her.

Norma scares me, too. Well, Petula Clarke's Norma scares me. :/ I just think Max has always been in love with her, hence the sticking around. What was that he said, "I found everything unbearable after she'd left me..." - and maybe being the butler isn't the same as being her doting husband, but it's the best he can ask for... But as for the razor - that, I love. I mean, it's obvious she only does it to manipulate Joe into coming back - and even then, there was no guarantee he would, but deep down he's a decent guy and the thought that he might have killed her probably scares him a little - but it's just so... quintessentially Norma, I guess. Melodrama is how she lives her life (incidentally, there's some really interesting observations about that and her manic hand gestures on the commentary to the DVD...), it's how she made her career, and if words fail, she'll use her acting.

I do agree, though, that she's the most interesting person in the story. But Joe's also very interesting. At some point I may have to post both my shipper-observations and my random Joe observations, once I've tidied them up. Lots of discussion potential there. ;) And, yes, I want to wallop her sometimes, too.

And I hate to sound mean (and I really am sometimes), but I just can't and don't want to see a future in Norma/Joe. Because I think it's all delusion on her part (like before, HOW manu husbands has she had? I forgot.) and all fakery on his. I'm not even sure if he really ever cared for her as a person, or just felt she was necessary to get away back to Dayton.

Don't worry about it. I enjoy being in a minority (even though it can get very frustrating when the only fic I have to read is my own...) and I love 'comparing notes' with Betty/Joe shippers, because right from the start I was Joe/Norma-centred. (In fact, my video had a trailer/teaser sequence, and as soon as I heard the line "You don't want me to love you..." I was hooked.) It's difficult to discern the line between the delusion and the reality in Norma's mind; personally, I think she's more sane than we give her credit for. I do like to think that maybe Joe did care about her, just a little... what with the residual guilt from New Year's Eve and her underlying vulnerability...

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From:fullofstarlight
Date:August 8th, 2004 03:46 pm (UTC)

Re: (2)

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In the musical, he does partway admit he's in love with Betty

He actually says "If I'm a fool, well//I'm too much in love to care", so I think that's a little more than partway. ;) And I love it too. :: swoon ::

I'd say it was him warning her off, but then surely the lyrics would be "Before YOU play...", not 'we'... Though in all honesty, with the portrayal that particular tour Joe gave me, I was convinced he was trying not to fall for her that night.

The "We" is a good point, but in the movie I didn't get the "trying not to fall in love with her" vibe at all. I more got a "This is weird" kinda vibe, but then ALW has a tendency to do that with characters who don't get together (Example: Phantom. Christine is scared crapless of the phantom in the book, but in the musical she's suddenly all lusty for him in Point of No Return and there are bazillions upon bazillions of E/C fans, and everyone calls Raoul a ""fop"!(?) )

They're both hot-headed, and if it did last, it would be laced with too many arguments to be considered exactly healthy...

LOL! True! But, then, that's why I love them. (Maren has this thing with love/hate couples)

I just think Max has always been in love with her, hence the sticking around. What was that he said, "I found everything unbearable after she'd left me..." - and maybe being the butler isn't the same as being her doting husband, but it's the best he can ask for

Their relationship is intriguing. I always thought it was ironic that Max "needs" Norma, while Norma "needs" Joe. I've always felt sorry for Max. :: sniffle ::

deep down he's a decent guy and the thought that he might have killed her probably scares him a little - but it's just so... quintessentially Norma, I guess.

Lol, true. I think that Joe really just wants to suceed and live up to his own dream, and that his life could have sprialed down so far as to have perphaps killed someone rattles him a little, and maybe gives him the thought of how far away from that dream he is.

Melodrama is how she lives her life (incidentally, there's some really interesting observations about that and her manic hand gestures on the commentary to the DVD...), it's how she made her career, and if words fail, she'll use her acting.

Good point, and maybe she believes that as long as she's still acting her fans will still be there. And since she no longer has an outlet in her films, she figures doing it in her daily life will make up for it.

It's difficult to discern the line between the delusion and the reality in Norma's mind; personally, I think she's more sane than we give her credit for.

That sounds quite probable to me.

I do like to think that maybe Joe did care about her, just a little... what with the residual guilt from New Year's Eve and her underlying vulnerability...

I think he did, especially when he realized that he could have such influence over her. But I think that, like any other man, he couldn't take it, and couldn't stand that she had shattered his dream as well as he had hers.
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From:teylaminh
Date:August 9th, 2004 01:54 pm (UTC)

Re: (2)

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He actually says "If I'm a fool, well//I'm too much in love to care", so I think that's a little more than partway. ;) And I love it too. :: swoon ::

Details, details. :P

The "We" is a good point, but in the movie I didn't get the "trying not to fall in love with her" vibe at all. I more got a "This is weird" kinda vibe, but then ALW has a tendency to do that with characters who don't get together (Example: Phantom. Christine is scared crapless of the phantom in the book, but in the musical she's suddenly all lusty for him in Point of No Return and there are bazillions upon bazillions of E/C fans, and everyone calls Raoul a ""fop"!(?) )

No, definitely not there in the movie. Mostly, I have to work from two separate canons these days - movie and musical, because I love them both, and they're both Sunset to me, and I love different aspects of them and the way they compare... As to the other, I am (of course...) an E/C fan, but there's a lot more depth to that relationship in the novel, too, even though ALW does have a lot to answer for in terms of making all the fans rabid. (It's unfair on Raoul, but... eh, I admit I don't like him, but I'm getting better at seeing his point of view. Old habits die hard, and I mostly still want to poke him with sharp objects...) I actually got into another interesting debate with collie_wing on the inter-relations of E/C/R, and she put it in better words than I could... so I won't go into it here, but suffice it to say I wouldn't be an E/C shipper if the relationship was simple, and I love it for the same reasons (more or less) that I love N/J...

Their relationship is intriguing. I always thought it was ironic that Max "needs" Norma, while Norma "needs" Joe. I've always felt sorry for Max. :: sniffle ::

Definitely; poor Max gets a raw deal, doesn't he? I wonder who JOE needs in all of this...?

Good point, and maybe she believes that as long as she's still acting her fans will still be there. And since she no longer has an outlet in her films, she figures doing it in her daily life will make up for it.

And after so many years, it's second nature anyway. Who knows; maybe Max encouraged her. He WAS her director, after all...

I think he did, especially when he realized that he could have such influence over her. But I think that, like any other man, he couldn't take it, and couldn't stand that she had shattered his dream as well as he had hers.

Feh. Weak male species. ;) But yeah, he's definitely not as strong as he likes to think he is. It all comes back to that power relationship again; thinking of how he would have been brought up, in a family where the father/man of the house is king of his domain, getting to know Norma and being essentially owned by her is going to be a shock to his system, and it's there from the start: immediately, he realises Max's place in that house, and it's certainly not any place of power...

Essentially, they destroyed each other. I suppose it's only slightly better that Norma wasn't sane enough to realise that by the end...
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From:teylaminh
Date:June 28th, 2004 03:12 pm (UTC)

(3) Bloody character count...

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I'd like to believe that Norma just wanted attention. And Joe just wanted money.

Isn't that all anyone wants? ;)

I'm thoroughly enjoying the discussion, by the way. It's not often I get to vent...

PS: I love this icon, too. It stemmed from a conversation with someone where she said that Betty should just have thrown the damned apple and be done with, so I iconed it...

PPS: Fanfiction.net, for starters. My profile is here, the fic's called "Tango Up On Sunset". Failing that, it's hosted at my old site (I've not got around to moving it to the new one yet...) with a couple of other bits, and they can be found right here. Be warned in advance of the Norma/Joe-centricity... :) Nevertheless, I've had a couple of Betty/Joe shippers read it and enjoy it. There's a whole sequel planned, and a whole tonne more of the damned stuff on my hard drive. I'm just not brave enough to show anyone.

I'm also going to be writing a SB/Breakfast at Tiffany's crossover with aforesaid friend, after realising that Joe Gillis and Paul Varjak were the same damn person. It's got four different endings. I fear for its future. ;)

*shuts up*
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From:yaresarah
Date:July 20th, 2004 06:45 pm (UTC)
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WOW!!! I really though I was the only person who sat around and dissected films *especially this one*like this. I just have a couple of comments--

I've always thought that Norma had been a temperamental star in her hey day, that's obvious from the way she treats people and reacts to situations. So, and this is just my theory, the studio bosses decide that they are going to cut Norma since she's losing appeal, pretty much everybody realizes it except Norma who is much to busy being beautiful, complicated, and talented. So, when she finally receives word that she is being fired she just assumes she'll pick up at another studio because she still believes she's on top. So, she tries and no one takes her up on her offer so she just sort of gradually fades out of the Hollywood scene until she pretends she thinks she's too good for all the commercial films being made and that's she's a star or real stature etc.

Max, Demille, etc. think she's half cracked because of her tantrums. So they sort of decide to shelter her, sending the fan letters, humoring her, etc.

She isn't really crazy just ignorant. No one has ever had the guts to tell her she's through. So she thinks she's still got it.


I'm sure there are many gaps in my theory but that's just the way I like to think of it. I adore the Desmond character/way of life so much I just like to think of things in that way to make her more or a victim. I like to romanticize so she isn't to blame and other's made her full on insecurities, so it leaves room for plot development.

Sorry I sound so stupid compared to the genius previous posts.
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From:fullofstarlight
Date:August 8th, 2004 03:55 pm (UTC)
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" So, and this is just my theory, the studio bosses decide that they are going to cut Norma since she's losing appeal, pretty much everybody realizes it except Norma who is much to busy being beautiful, complicated, and talented."

That makes sense.

"So, she tries and no one takes her up on her offer so she just sort of gradually fades out of the Hollywood scene until she pretends she thinks she's too good for all the commercial films being made and that's she's a star or real stature etc. "

Yeah, she probably tried convincing herself that so that she didn't have to deal with the loss of her career.

"She isn't really crazy just ignorant"

I've always thought it was a healthy mixture of both.

"No one has ever had the guts to tell her she's through. So she thinks she's still got it."

Definatly evidenced by the letters Max keeps sending.

"I like to romanticize so she isn't to blame and other's made her full on insecurities, so it leaves room for plot development."

Personally, I think she is in the most part to blame. I think it has to do with her ego as well as her insecurities, because letting Joe go would equal addmiting that she is still no longer a star.

"Sorry I sound so stupid compared to the genius previous posts."

No, you don't sound stupid at all!




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From:yaresarah
Date:August 8th, 2004 05:56 pm (UTC)
(Permanent Link)
Thanks! I really feel the need to watch this film again, I just watched it last week but I can't get enough of it!